Interview with Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski for A1 Television with editor in chief Mladen Cadikovski and journalist Borjan Jovanovski outside the Government building in Skopje on 31 January presented verbatim

Cadikovski: Good evening. What you are to see right now may seem to you a little unusual. We, the people from Pero Nakov bb came here on Ilindenska bb and have been airing news from here over the past few days. The chief so to say on Ilindenska bb is Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski.  Mr. Gruevski, it is probably a matter of hours when A1 stops working altogether. Why did you shoot at A1’s heart with your last move of blocking its account?
PM Gruevski: Thank you for the question. Let me first say that I have not been invited to be a guest in your news shows or in your television for nearly two years. There have been public appeals recently for me to come but you have not done it properly as you used to do when you wanted me to be your guest. You have not given me the chance to be a guest in your news shows and therefore through my chief of staff I was forced to ask if I may appear on your show to discuss the recent events that you have been reporting and commenting on the way that you have.  So I am happy to have been given the chance to appear on your program after nearly two years.  I would like to stress that these days we have had a situation in which theses have been swapped. The whole situation that started regarding the Pero Nakov case started after a court ruling had been taken and not because of a government decision. The Government has neither a legal right nor does it want to close A1. A1 and the other firms in Pero Nakov Street received a ruling from the relevant court…

Cadikovski: Mr. Gruevski, the Government’s political will is obvious and your point is very clear, that the judiciary is independent….
PM Gruevski: Could you please let me finish?

Cadikovski:  Can a country that is an EU candidate member state…. Yes, I will let you finish.
PM Gruevski: You are the editor-in-chief. You should not be acting like this. Please let me finish.

Cadikovski: Sure, go ahead.
PM Gruevski: Theses have been swapped and the public is being manipulated and told that it is the Government that wishes to close A1. This is not true. The Government is only executing the ruling of the court that the account of A1 should be blocked because the prosecutor found that A1 does not have registered real estate that could be frozen. Therefore all accusations that the Government is to blame and that it is shooting, as you say, are all made up. Nowhere in the world…

Cadikovski: The judiciary is the main concern in the report of the European Commission and in the latest statements of Mr. Reeker and Mr. Fouere it is assessed as independent and partial. Partial does not imply that the influence comes from farmers or redundant employees. So what Brussels accuses you of and what Mr. Reeker criticizes you about is that the judiciary is set on very bad foundations and that the influence from you and the government on the courts is enormous.
PM Gruevski: They don’t say that the influence on my part is enormous. It is you who says that. Since we came to power, crucial steps have been made to improve the situation in the judiciary. New laws have been passed and the extant ones have been modified. In December last year, a new package of judiciary-related laws was passed and they will become effective in the course of 2011, 2012 and 2013. And as they start taking effects, the situation will get better, so…

Cadikovski: Do you know what blocking of an account means?
PM Gruevski: I know very well what that means. This is a usual court procedure carried out whenever there is a suspicion of a serious crime as in this case. It is a common procedure. I have been inquiring these days if this happened before in other cases. I have been told that a few years ago the UN and a number of experts recommended that this measure be pronounced more frequently… (he is interrupted by boos from the gather crowed). Have you organized this?

Jovanovski: What do you think?
PM Gruevski: Yes, I think you have. Or your partner.

Jovanovski: Who is our partner?
PM Gruevski: You know who that is.  Anyhow…

Jovanovski: Are there any people who are not influenced by “our partner” and us?
PM Gruevski: Let me first finish this and I then I will answer that question too. The UN as well as home experts have recommended that. For instance I have found on the Internet that Slagjana Taseva recommended on a few occasion that there could not be a true fight against corruption and organized crime before the authorities started freezing assets, blocking accounts, and so on and so forth. Since that initiative was launched globally, the authorities in Macedonia have started using those measures more often too. So this is a usual measure of the court that the Government has to respect…

Jovanovski: May I ask something?
PM Gruevski: Just let me finish this. We have frequently been unsatisfied with the rulings of the Constitutional Court and we have commented on them, which some say is good some say is bad, but we have always put them into practice. Not one of them has remained non-executed. And one more thing. In September 2006 when we took office, the government account was blocked for about ten days because the previous government had lost court cases against individuals and companies and because it owed them money the account was blocked for about 20 days. We didn’t get out to hold sessions outside the Parliament, or A1 or the court. Instead, we honored the ruling because it was a court ruling just as last year the accounts of Kanal 5 and the Macedonian Television were blocked based on a court ruling and nobody took to the streets to protest.

Jovanovski: Is Macedonia a signatory of the convention on prevention against money laundering and confiscation of the Council of Europe? Do you know of that convention?
PM Gruevski: What is the point of your question?

Jovanovski: Do you know it was signed?
PM Gruevski: Yes, I do.

Jovanovski: Do you know what it says?
PM Gruevski: Of course I do. What’s the point of this?

Jovanovski: Do you abide by that convention?
PM Gruevski: Of course we do.

Jovanovski: Do you know that the convention stipulates that in procedures like this one, the legal entity in question should be allowed to continue working thus honoring the principles of entrepreneurship?
PM Gruevski: I am not a legal advisor to advise you what you should do. I am the prime minister of this country and I am obliged…

Jovanovski: We don’t need you to do that. We just need you to respect the conventions that this country has signed.
PM Gruevski: …to respect court rulings.

Jovanovski: What about the conventions?
PM Gruevski: I personally feel bad because of the situation in which a group of journalists, including you, are. You may not be responsible for what your owners, or the directors and managers of the firms on Pero Nakov Street did. They did what they did and made the court take that decision.

Cadikovski: We are talking about conventions and international standards and if the court breaches them, then you have a problem with the court. Our problem with the court is bigger because tomorrow or in a few days A1 will stop working because our account is blocked. It should be clear to you all. All these people here cannot be paid salaries. They cannot fill their gas tanks tomorrow or buy themselves breakfast. How do you plan on providing freedom of media if you want to shut down A1, the only one or one of the few, the most powerful one, reporting on the government’s work objectively? We know how the others report?
PM Gruevski: The laws in Macedonia are the same for all. If some people pay fines of 200 euros for not putting their seat belts on, those who are suspected of crimes of millions of euros cannot say they should not be fined for having employees and not respect the court ruling and put pressure on the Government. I see your airing from here, from outside the Government, as putting of pressure on the Government to put pressure on and threaten the court to make it withdraw its ruling. We can’t do this and we have never done it. I understand what you mean. A lot of companies in Macedonia have the same problem you do. They have problems with the law. Why didn’t you raise the same question with regard to Bajrush Sejdiu’s case? In that case the employees may not have been responsible that their managers and directors operated illegally. Yet they are now jobless. Who is to blame for that? Is the Government, the court or those who brought them to that situation to blame?

Jovanovski: When were Sejdiu’s firms closed, before or after the court’s verdict?
PM Gruevski: You are now asking me questions…

Jovanovski: Well, this is an interview. We are supposed to ask you questions. We have seen how other interviews look like.
PM Gruevski: I am the President of the Government and I wish to help any citizen as much as I can and as much my authorizations allow me. (He is interrupted continuously). Please let me finish what I have to say. This is unfair of you.

Jovanovski: Are you going to tell us when we should ask the questions?
PM Gruevski: I want to be let finish my sentences. You are now twisting this whole situation.

Jovanovski: Please go ahead.
PM Gruevski: Ok, I can stop talking and I am only going to listen to you talk.

Jovanovski: We are having a conversation and it is only normal for me to interrupt with more questions when I want to understand things better.
PM Gruevski: Ok, ask what you want.

Jovanovski: You mentioned Sejdiu’s case. When did his firms stop working?
PM Gruevski: I was just about to answer that. My answer is a bit longer and you are impatient. As prime minister I am responsible for the Government and its powers. In this case, we talk about the powers of the court. If you are unsatisfied with the court’s ruling, you should dispute it in a legitimate way and not by way of pressures and protests. The court has already said that pressure has been put on it in this particular case, which is bad. It is bad for our evaluation by the European Union as well. You can dispute any decision but in a legitimate way. You are constantly telling people that the Government and Nikola Gruevski should answer all questions because they have brought you to this situation. This is untrue. You have been brought to this situation by those who have managed your television and have breached the law and based on that the court decided to block the accounts and rule detention for a group of people. You should ask the court, in a legitimate way and not by pressurizing it.

Jovanovski: Have you read the Constitution?
PM Gruevski: Yes, I have.

Jovanovski: Do you know that the Constitution guarantees entrepreneurship conditions?
PM Gruevski: Of course I do. But I also know that entrepreneurship should honor laws. All companies should honor laws, including tax laws. All companies should pay tax and if they don’t laws stipulate what measures should be taken. They clearly state what the state institutions should do in those cases, at what point they hand the job over to the court and what the court does then. In this case, the court acted in line with the procedure.  What I don’t like is that some people expect the laws not to apply to them while applying to all the rest.

Jovanovski: We can discuss the double standards later. Now regarding the independence of the judiciary, will you ever explain to the public the numerous criticisms from the EC? You said it yourself that what the EC says is very important. Also the US ambassador, who invests a lot of money in the reform of the courts, said that the judiciary should be reconsidered and that it wasn’t right for Minister Manevski to interfere with the Judicial Council and the election of judges. We haven’t made that up, Mr. Prime Minister. So we have numerous founded suspicions, if I may say so, as to how the judiciary functions and what its connections with you are.
PM Gruevski: I understand what you mean. First of all, I have never said that the judiciary is ideal and flawless and nobody has ever said that. There are flaws and we are trying to remove them by changing laws and bylaws, by sending our judges to training courses abroad and inviting foreign experts to come and train theme here. We are doing all we can to improve that. We also use the help of experienced foreign experts, etc. Second, can you find anyone who can cite an EU directive saying that the Government is not obliged to execute a court ruling? If you can find such an EU directive, then it is okay.

Jovanovski: The US ambassador said closing of a medium will raise a number of issues that need to be reconsidered. I really want to know what you think of that?
PM Gruevski: You are swapping theses which is unfair and which I see as putting of pressure on the Government and the court.

Jovanovski: You are not the only ones who feel under pressure. We feel under pressure too.
PM Gruevski: I understand that may feel under pressure but you have picked the wrong address to turn to, either on purpose or not, you know best. But the sheer fact that you decided to come here, outside the Government, shows that you believe the Government has done this and you don’t say that a long inspection procedure preceded this, that the inspection authorities handed the materials to the prosecution, the prosecution forwarded them to the court, which considered them and ruled detention for a certain number of people and a little later decided to block the account. Why then have you come to the Government? You should complain to the court. You are unsatisfied with a court ruling yet turn to the Government and blame it.

Cadikovski: How do you understand freedom of media?
PM Gruevski: That means that no politician or businessman should interfere with their work. That is the short definition. It could be longer of course.

Jovanovski: Is the government responsible for the conditions in which media work?
PM Gruevski: The Government is responsible for the implementation of the laws and the execution of the court rulings. We cannot draw up separate laws for those who own media. That is nowhere to be found.

Jovanovski: We thought A1 was not subject to investigation.
PM Gruevski: As far as I know based on media reports and based on what my better-informed colleagues told me, subject of investigation were a group of firms on Pero Nakov Street, which were determined in the course of the investigation to have been connected with A1 television, and because there were financial transactions between them the inspection authorities asked for consent to expanded the investigation to include A1 too.

Jovanovski: You have been a minister of finance and are familiar with those matters. Do you think that based on the materials found in these firms, we can talk about exact sums without a through court investigation.
PM Gruevski: That investigation as part of the procedure is what should be done next. The prosecutor said in a public statement that the court investigation will take place in parallel with other processes she mentioned.

Jovanovski: Would it not have been better for court rulings to be taken after the court investigation?
PM Gruevski: I am not a jurist. The prosecutor is, and she knows better than me what the procedure is. She has probably done the same in many other cases before. She has provided that answer and I have no right to answer on her behalf.

Jovanovski: What did you discuss with Ambassador Reeker on Friday?
PM Gruevski: A number of issues, including this one. He told us what he said in public as well. We told him that this was a court ruling, that we have never exerted influence on the court, that we have no intention of exerting pressure in the future and that the Government as anywhere in the world can only put court rulings into practice.

Cadikovski: The owners of two out of three national televisions are your coalition partners, which means that A1 is the only independent medium. Do you want A1 to close down?
PM Gruevski: No.

Cadikovski: Why not?
PM Gruevski: There are a lot of media in Macedonia. Many of them are critical of the government and we accept that, we have nothing against it. What we want is for them to be professional. We like to be criticized because criticisms help us. But those should be substantiated criticisms with arguments and evidence. Media should not be criticizing just for the sake of it and on any cost, just to insult, discredit and slander. That is unfair and unprofessional.

Jovanovski: Can you cite an example?
PM Gruevski: There are a lot of examples. As you know Mr. Jovanovski, we are sending your television every day denials to your features or explanations if something has not been properly explained.

Jovanovski: Those are reviews of our features, not denials.
PM Gruevski: You have often refused to report those denials. That is unprofessional. You may not like the Government, or Nikola Gruevski, but it would be professional of you to report the denial, at least two of three sentences of it.

Jovanovski: As regards our report about what the EC report would state, you sent us a review on three pages, insulting our correspondent from Brussels and A1 television. The report of the EC later said everything we said it would say in our report. Are you going to apologize, Mr. Prime Minster for the insults?
PM Gruevski: I don’t know if we have insulted you. If we have, of course, we are going to apologize.

Jovanovski: You were saying things about political affiliations, etc, but not a single word in our report was untrue.
PM Gruevski: Of course, we are going to apologize if we have insulted anyone. But what about those hundreds of denials you said nothing about?

Cadikovski: Those are not denials but reviews. If you wish to be A1’s editor, there are other ways you can apply for the position, but not through reviews of our reports. We report denials when numbers and facts are denied but refuse to report your humiliation of our reporters.
PM Gruevski: Now you are insulting me. “Humiliation” is an insult.

Cadikovski: That’s how we saw them. You succeeded in becoming the editor of some media. You failed to pull that off with A1 and we now believe that because of this you wish to close us down.
PM Gruevski: This is something I have to deny. This is not true.

Cadikovski: Deny what? That you are the editor-in-chief? Perhaps Martin Protugjer is, I don’t know.
PM Gruevski: No, he is not.

Cadikovski: Who is then?
PM Gruevski: Those who have been put at those positions and it is unprofessional to insult people in this way. Inspections were made in all televisions, such as Kanal 5 and Sitel, and they all had to pay their overdue liabilities if there were any. Only in A1 the inspection authorities were not allowed to do their job.

Jovanovski: Why didn’t you come to A1 two years ago? 2005 and 2006 are also being mentioned.
PM Gruevski: I don’t decide when the inspection authorities should enter. There are procedures by which institutions, such as the Public Revenue Office, take action. From what I have been told, I know that they have long been trying to enter the firms on Pero Nakov to conduct audit but were obstructed and therefore they asked the Interior Ministry for assistance on prior approval from the court.

Jovanovski: Were there any inspection attempts in 2007 or 2008?
PM Gruevski: I don’t remember but the director of the PRO, who is here, can tell you exactly when those attempts were made.

Jovanovski: I will ask you once again. Do you think it is essential to block A1’s accounts and check the television’s work?
PM Gruevski: No, I don’t think anything. That is a court ruling.

Jovanovski: You are the leader of the ruling political party. We don’t expect you to tell the court what it should do. Others are probably doing that.
PM Gruevski: That is your opinion without any evidence whatsoever.

Jovanovski: No, I am reading the report of the EC which is relevant for the whole continent and should be relevant for you too.
PM Gruevski: You rely more on your representatives there than the report.

Jovanovski: No, I am reading the report of the EC. Was there any other way for you to collect those funds without closing the medium?
PM Gruevski: If I state my opinion regarding this case, it may be seen as a pressure on the court and therefore I refuse to voice my opinion and I will say again that it is the court that took this decision. You can stay outside the Government and blame it as much as you want.

Jovanovski: What if the court breached the provisions of the Constitution and the principles this state chose to be established upon?
PM Gruevski: There is a legitimate way in which you can complain against a court ruling. You are trying to pressurize us, politicians, so that we would pressurize the court. Don’t expect that from me. It will never happen.

Jovanovski: What do you mean by rule of law, entrepreneurship, market economy, democracy? How do you see those values? What if a court, which you say is independent, violates the basic principles the state draws upon, or at least we wish it drew upon? Don’t you think that the court breaches the basic democratic and market economy principles and the freedom of media with such a rigid ruling?
PM Gruevski: It’s not up to me to think anything. The court decided that.

Jovanovski: If the court rules a death sentence for someone, will you let that happen?
PM Gruevski: If there is evidence that the ruling is unlawful, there are ways in which the ruling can be appealed against.

Jovanovski: Would you react in any way?
PM Gruevski: React to what?

Jovanovski: If the court sentenced someone to death for, let’s say, stealing something.
PM Gruevski: These are now highly hypothetical questions. I can only say that in every democratic country, if someone is unhappy with what the court has ruled, they follow the procedure of appeal and do not show up outside the Government blaming the Government. This doesn’t happen anywhere.

Jovanovski: We cite reports of relevant international factors that trust that the Government interferes with the court’s work.
PM Gruevski: It turns out, according to you, that anyone who is unsatisfied with a court ruling can say they don’t recognize it because someone in the EU said otherwise…

Jovanovski: We didn’t say we didn’t recognize it.
PM Gruevski: …and can come here and blame the Government.

Jovanovski: Yes, why not? This is democracy.
PM Gruevski: Ok, that it there legitimate right.

Jovanovski: Why should you be upset or feel pressurized by that? Everyone has the right to think what they want. What I want to know is how much you take care of the democratic values of the country which decided to become independent 20 years ago and also decided to bid for membership of the EU and NATO.
PM Gruevski: I am doing everything in my power to make sure that the Constitution, the laws and the court rulings in this country are put into effect. That is my primary task. It is also my job to make sure that the laws that can be improved are improved continuously and that is what we do relying on our capacities and also using the aid of foreign experts and that is what we are going to continue to do?

Jovanovski:  If A1 is closed down, are you going to modify certain laws because the way they are now they are not functioning well and media get easily shut down?
PM Gruevski: I cannot suppose what I am going to do and whether that is going to happen. All I can do is implement the laws of the EU because we strive as a country, as a government, and as a political party to make sure the country joins the EU as soon as possible. But there is no EU directive that allows the Government to not execute a court ruling.

Jovanovski: In no EU member state a legal entity is closed down in this way either.
PM Gruevski: Tell me of a country in which a number of firms are housed in the same building with a medium and the medium does not let the inspection authorities in. Imagine that CNN registers another twenty firms in their building and does not let inspectors carry out control in those firms.

Jovanovski: Who said they were not let do their job? They only said they had no comment.
PM Gruevski: If they had not been prevented, they would not have asked the court for a warrant to call for police assistance in doing their job. But they had evidence they were prevented from doing their job which they presented to the court based on which the court instructed the interior Ministry to make sure the inspection authorities could enter the firms.

Jovanovski: Who kept the inspectors from doing their job?
PM Gruevski: The fact that you did not find that out is not my problem.

Jovanovski: I was there, on the spot.
PM Gruevski: Then you should know. You want to be an expert on this situation, but you are not familiar with a lot of details.

Cadikovski: How do you know, Prime Minister?
PM Gruevski: Based on what the director of the PRO said. He said he filed a request with the court and the court, based on the arguments in the request, instructed the police to assist.

Cadikovski: Twenty-four hours of what happened in A1, the director of the PRO and the interior minister produced accusations with regard to the alleged crime. Is this not pressure on the court?
PM Gruevski: They said what the investigation was about and what the suspicions were and what suspicions they had investigated up to that point.

Cadikovski: The mentioned exact sums of millions of euros. Do you remember the endless press conferences that were a blatant example of putting pressure on the courts and the prosecution?
PM Gruevski: There are many examples when institutions pointed out certain irregularities and the court rejected them. The court considered their evidence and decided not to accept it and the institutions accepted in return the court’s decision. The court did not see that as pressure. It only accepted the materials certain institutions submitted. It was you who called on Jankulovska and Trajkovski and all other authorities to explain what is going on. They came out to explain because they were called to do so.

Jovanovski: But they gave the explanation in Sitel and Kanal 5.
PM Gruevski: Where they were invited in a normal way.

Jovanovski: How come our personal numbers got leaked in public?
PM Gruevski: I have no information on that.

Jovanovski: How can you not know? Everybody knows about our personal numbers.
PM Gruevski: If you trust that something has been done illicitly, launch a procedure about that.

Jovanovski: You have not been informed about that?
PM Gruevski: There is a procedure by which you can appeal against that and an investigation can be carried out.

Jovanovski: Are you a Demo-Christian? Do you know that mothers of underage children and a pregnant woman are being held and that family dramas are taking place? Their children think their moms have left them. Have you ever thought of this from a Christian point of view?
PM Gruevski: Yes, I am a Demo-Christian but neither I nor the Government decides who should be detained. Only the court is in charge of that, taking into account all arguments.

Jovanovski: Are there any other measures, such as house arrest?
PM Gruevski: Of course there are, but it is up to the court to decide.

Jovanovski: I am trying to appeal to your Christian conscience that you are insisting on so much.
PM Gruevski: You have turned to the wrong address. Let’s say I agree with everything you said. I don’t have the authority to decide who should be detained and who should not.

Jovanovski: Do you believe human rights are a problem in this country?
PM Gruevski: In all areas where problems occur in this respect, the Government does all in its power to protect human rights.

Cadikovski: We have a new political situation in the country. Will there be early elections?
PM Gruevski.  Our party is going to consider all options and if such a decision is taken you will be notified timely. No such decision has yet been taken. Parliament Speaker Veljanoski is making effort to get SDSM and its satellites back to the Parliament and ensure normal functioning of the Parliament. I believe that decision of the opposition is damaging for the country and also what they want from the government is illegitimate. They are unsatisfied with a court ruling and want the Government to take care f it. I can’t help them and I see this as an excuse to make a problem.

Cadikovski: SDSM, NSDP, Demokracia e Re, PDSH, New Alternative, they are all looking for an excuse. Why should they all need an excuse, because of Velija or a court process?
PM Gruevski: PDSH has long walked out of the Parliament for reasons that have nothing to do with this. This was organized by SDSM and its satellite parties and also NSDP that probably wants to score points or get closer to SDSM. They have all made the wrong decision.

Jovanovski: As regards the independence of the judiciary, do you know that most citizens’ remarks refer to the judiciary. Is there a problem?
PM Gruevski: I will be repeating myself. I have never said there are no problems in the judiciary. We have made crucial modifications to the laws and they will be put into practice in….

Cadikovski: You have said that four times.
PM Gruevski: You have asked me that four times, so I am going to give you the same answer four times.

Cadikovski: Don’t you believe that it is a pressure on the court to call on the entire public not to watch A1? A few months after that appeal you entered A1 with police assistance.
PM Gruevski: That is untrue. What I have said was that certain things should be taken with reserve and checked because we have noticed that some reports were untrue and our denials were not presented. I have never appealed that A1 should not be watched.

Jovanovski: Freedom of media is freedom of media.
Cadikovski: Do you remember your interview with MIA in which you accused our correspondents from Brussels of manipulating the Macedonian public?
PM Gruevski: I said things for which I had arguments.

Jovanovski: Have you ever heard of a Demo-Christian politician who has appealed to the citizens at a public rally to reconsider the information reported by a given medium. This is unseen in Europe. Maybe in Belarus.
PM Gruevski: We only said certain information should be taken with reserve because you refuse to report our denials.

Jovanovski: Those are reviews, not denials. Someone should tell you what a denial is. You have no idea what the forms of communication are.
PM Gruevski: If someone reports information about you that is not true, are you not going to deny? Considering that you never report our denials, we can only press charges against you but we are the only party that dropped charges against journalists and it is here that you can see what the capacity of every political party is to ensure freedom of media.

Jovanovski: Finally, do you want A1 to continue working?
PM Gruevski: Yes, I do.

Jovanovski: How can that happen when the account is blocked? What would your suggestion be?
PM Gruevski: A1’s owners and managers should have thought of that.

Cadikovski: I hope we all here agree that if A1 is shut down, that would be a collapse of the democratic atmosphere in Macedonia. This may happen very soon and until that happens we are going to stay here and your ministers, who have refused to appear in our studio over the past six months, can be our guests. That boycott is part of the unprincipled attitude to the democratic processes.
PM Gruevski: That is untrue. Beti Kamcevska was your guest 2-3 months ago, on 25 November to be more specific.

Cadikovski: That was the last time then.
PM Gruevski: All firms, including A1, should abide by the laws of this country and no one should use the freedom of media as a screen for hiding crime-related suspicions.